Ren'Py The Awakening [v0.4.5b] [SLim Games]

GrizzlyUK said:

Alternatively you could just mute the sounds and not worry about such trivial things? Then again, seeing as the incest patch is optional, if you don't want it then don't install it. If using the incest patch makes no sense to you then, again, just don't install it. Isn't it great to have options as to what you install?

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Come on dude, at what point does incest become so divorced from the game's content that the tag should no longer apply?

If you have to disable major aspects of the gameplay to sell an incest story, I think that's an excellent demarcation point to say the game is no longer incest. Otherwise the tag's usage becomes so useless as a way to filter games that we might as well not use it anymore. Anything could be made into an incest game if you squint at the characters from the corner of your eye, turn off the sound, and rewrite the dialog.

It's just silly. This game has voice acting, it's a major selling point for the game. The voice acting leaves no room to debate as to the relationship between the characters like other voice acting games do. I think it's time to remove the incest tag as it's an utterly useless descriptor for the game at this point.

thealucid said:

Come on dude, at what point does incest become so divorced from the game's content that the tag should no longer apply?

If you have to disable major aspects of the gameplay to sell an incest story, I think that's an excellent demarcation point to say the game is no longer incest. Otherwise the tag's usage becomes so useless as a way to filter games that we might as well not use it anymore. Anything could be made into an incest game if you squint at the characters from the corner of your eye, turn off the sound, and rewrite the dialog.

It's just silly. This game has voice acting, it's a major selling point for the game. The voice acting leaves no room to debate as to the relationship between the characters like other voice acting games do. I think it's time to remove the incest tag as it's an utterly useless descriptor for the game at this point.

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Well I guess the incest tag is there because there's an incest patch? Everyone has the choice of whether to use that patch or not. How individuals choose to interpet the game with the patch is, surely, down to the individual isn't it? Or are you now trying to tell everyone just how they should play a game?

Having choices is always a good thing, as it stands everyone has mutliple choices here. Install the patch or don't, mute the sound or don't, but simply because you don't agree with something doesn't mean you get to decide whether it's appropriate or not.

Sure, you can express your opinion, as can anyone and everyone! I simply do not see a problem and I suspect others won't see a problem either. If you don't want incest in the game for whatever reason then simply don't install the incest patch. If you do want incest but the voiced dialogue ruins that for you then mute the sounds.

Just because you consider something to be silly or pointless or useless or whatever doesn't mean that others will. Each to their own and let individuals choose what they want.

See how that works? Everyone has the choice as to what they see (and/or hear) in the game. That's a good thing isn't it? Just like how everyone has the choice to try this game (or any other game) and see if they like it or not. You may consider the voice acting to be a selling point for the game but I don't. But then I can mute the sound and still enjoy the game. See, there's those pesky old choices popping up yet again!

If the incest patch ever gets removed for whatever reason (incompatible, useless or whatever) and nobody creates a new one to make incest work then yes, absolutely remove the tag. But while there is an incest tag available for people to choose to use or not then I guess the tag will remain. Oh no, choices once again!

GrizzlyUK said:

Well I guess the incest tag is there because there's an incest patch? Everyone has the choice of whether to use that patch or not. How individuals choose to interpet the game with the patch is, surely, down to the individual isn't it? Or are you now trying to tell everyone just how they should play a game?

Having choices is always a good thing, as it stands everyone has mutliple choices here. Install the patch or don't, mute the sound or don't, but simply because you don't agree with something doesn't mean you get to decide whether it's appropriate or not.

Sure, you can express your opinion, as can anyone and everyone! I simply do not see a problem and I suspect others won't see a problem either. If you don't want incest in the game for whatever reason then simply don't install the incest patch. If you do want incest but the voiced dialogue ruins that for you then mute the sounds.

Just because you consider something to be silly or pointless or useless or whatever doesn't mean that others will. Each to their own and let individuals choose what they want.

See how that works? Everyone has the choice as to what they see (and/or hear) in the game. That's a good thing isn't it? Just like how everyone has the choice to try this game (or any other game) and see if they like it or not. You may consider the voice acting to be a selling point for the game but I don't. But then I can mute the sound and still enjoy the game. See, there's those pesky old choices popping up yet again!

If the incest patch ever gets removed for whatever reason (incompatible, useless or whatever) and nobody creates a new one to make incest work then yes, absolutely remove the tag. But while there is an incest tag available for people to choose to use or not then I guess the tag will remain. Oh no, choices once again!

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The incest tag is there for games that feature incest, or feature incest lightly subverted by an obvious trope that can be immediately corrected with a patch. I have never seen a game with the incest tag where entire gameplay elements have to be removed for the incest to function.

Likewise the presence of an incest patch does not immediately mean the game gets the incest tag. Big City's Pleasures is a good example of this. The game is almost explicit about a mom and sister character, with the mom having blowjob/handjob/titjob scenes, with an incest patch to remove ambiguity, and yet the game does not have an incest tag.

The problem arises when you have monthly data limits or slow download speeds. I don't think people with limited resources want to pick up a game with voice acting, expecting it to feature incest, and spend the time and data usage to download a several gigabyte sized file only to find the game has no incest and the patch only scrambles the written dialog but the voice acting has to be turned off.

thealucid said:

The incest tag is there for games that feature incest, or feature incest lightly subverted by an obvious trope that can be immediately corrected with a patch. I have never seen a game with the incest tag where entire gameplay elements have to be removed for the incest to function.

Likewise the presence of an incest patch does not immediately mean the game gets the incest tag. Big City's Pleasures is a good example of this. The game is almost explicit about a mom and sister character, with the mom having blowjob/handjob/titjob scenes, with an incest patch to remove ambiguity, and yet the game does not have an incest tag.

The problem arises when you have monthly data limits or slow download speeds. I don't think people with limited resources want to pick up a game with voice acting, expecting it to feature incest, and spend the time and data usage to download a several gigabyte sized file only to find the game has no incest and the patch only scrambles the written dialog but the voice acting has to be turned off.

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I agree that there are many games where a tag(s) is either missing or inappropriately added, but that's a whole other issue that's probably best left for the site owner and staff to deal with. But if you see any game that is missing a specific tag that should be added then by all means report it so that the site staff can then correct the omission! I haven't played Big City's Pleasures in over a year and I've played a few hundred other games since then which means I don't recall the storyline to well so I'll not comment on that one.

Sadly you seem to have missed my point entirely. People have the freedom to choose whether they use the incest patch or not. Should there be a warning as to just how the incest patch works? Yes, there probably should, but based on the number of times I've seen people asking questions that have already been answered in the OP I suspect a large number of folks would simply not read such a warning in the first place!

Is the way it all works now ideal? Probably not, but that's something that should be directed towards the site owner and staff isn't it?

Let's be honest, if game creators would simply stop clinging to Patreon as the only possible solution to host their creations which would allow them to try and earn some actual money from their creations we'd all be better off! We all know that Patreon doesn't allow various types of content, incest being one, and because of that we have to have patches to either "restore" or add that missing content. It's not ideal, the vast majority knows it's not ideal, but the creators of these games are free to choose where they host their creations (see, choices again). It just means that those of us who use these games tend to struggle to find a game that includes the fetishes we want by default, so we have to resort to using the patches that have been created. Again, not an ideal solution or situation.

Yes, it would be better if the site used tags that were more appropriate and/or more indicative of the content the tag has been attached to. It would also help if tags were actually added correctly in the first place as well. But hey, very little (if anything) in this world is perfect. As such we generally have to make do with what we've got.

In other words, it's not an ideal situation nor an ideal solution, but the incest patch is (currently) available for anyone to download and use if they so choose to do so. The fact that there is such a patch should be warning enough that incest is not included in the game by default. If they then choose to go ahead and download the game and the incest patch but then find that they don't like and/or aren't happy with the way the incest patch works then that's on the individual. If anyone isn't sure how well the incest patch works they're completely free to simply ask that question before they download anything! Ooops, choices yet again!

Yeah I know I'm big on people having choices and options, if you don't like that then that's not my problem!

GrizzlyUK said:

I agree that there are many games where a tag(s) is either missing or inappropriately added, but that's a whole other issue that's probably best left for the site owner and staff to deal with. But if you see any game that is missing a specific tag that should be added then by all means report it so that the site staff can then correct the omission! I haven't played Big City's Pleasures in over a year and I've played a few hundred other games since then which means I don't recall the storyline to well so I'll not comment on that one.

Sadly you seem to have missed my point entirely. People have the freedom to choose whether they use the incest patch or not. Should there be a warning as to just how the incest patch works? Yes, there probably should, but based on the number of times I've seen people asking questions that have already been answered in the OP I suspect a large number of folks would simply not read such a warning in the first place!

Is the way it all works now ideal? Probably not, but that's something that should be directed towards the site owner and staff isn't it?

Let's be honest, if game creators would simply stop clinging to Patreon as the only possible solution to host their creations which would allow them to try and earn some actual money from their creations we'd all be better off! We all know that Patreon doesn't allow various types of content, incest being one, and because of that we have to have patches to either "restore" or add that missing content. It's not ideal, the vast majority knows it's not ideal, but the creators of these games are free to choose where they host their creations (see, choices again). It just means that those of us who use these games tend to struggle to find a game that includes the fetishes we want by default, so we have to resort to using the patches that have been created. Again, not an ideal solution or situation.

Yes, it would be better if the site used tags that were more appropriate and/or more indicative of the content the tag has been attached to. It would also help if tags were actually added correctly in the first place as well. But hey, very little (if anything) in this world is perfect. As such we generally have to make do with what we've got.

In other words, it's not an ideal situation nor an ideal solution, but the incest patch is (currently) available for anyone to download and use if they so choose to do so. The fact that there is such a patch should be warning enough that incest is not included in the game by default. If they then choose to go ahead and download the game and the incest patch but then find that they don't like and/or aren't happy with the way the incest patch works then that's on the individual. If anyone isn't sure how well the incest patch works they're completely free to simply ask that question before they download anything! Ooops, choices yet again!

Yeah I know I'm big on people having choices and options, if you don't like that then that's not my problem!

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I don't know if you understand what I'm getting at. The tag is a terrible descriptor for the game considering the incest content relies on increasingly convoluted dialog to sell the narrative the characters are related as well as disabling a major gameplay element and selling point. Because the game is no longer being developed by the creator as an incest game.

That the tag will likely negatively impact people looking for an incest game and waste their monthly data limit on downloading this game without realizing how poorly the incest is implemented. That the tag does more harm than good in misleading people and causing them to waste their time and resources.

Choice is fairly representing the game in the spirit that the dev is developing the game, and then including patches to modify the gameplay. We don't tag games like 'City of Broken Dreamers' incest if some random guy makes a patch that has the young girl at the center of the game's plot be your mother. Because the dev is not making an incest game. Maybe 'The Awakening' was meant to be incest early on in its development, but we are far beyond that stage at this point.

thealucid said:

I don't know if you understand what I'm getting at. The tag is a terrible descriptor for the game considering the incest content relies on increasingly convoluted dialog to sell the narrative the characters are related as well as disabling a major gameplay element and selling point. Because the game is no longer being developed by the creator as an incest game.

That the tag will likely negatively impact people looking for an incest game and waste their monthly data limit on downloading this game without realizing how poorly the incest is implemented. That the tag does more harm than good in misleading people and causing them to waste their time and resources.

Choice is fairly representing the game in the spirit that the dev is developing the game, and then including patches to modify the gameplay. We don't tag games like 'City of Broken Dreamers' incest if some random guy makes a patch that has the young girl at the center of the game's plot be your mother. Because the dev is not making an incest game. Maybe 'The Awakening' was meant to be incest early on in its development, but we are far beyond that stage at this point.

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*sigh* Yes, I do understand what you're saying. But you seem to be failing to understand what I'm saying. There is an incest patch currently available for people to choose to download. Regardless of how well or how badly it is implemented, the patch is there, linked very clearly in the OP.

Anyone is perfectly able to ask how well the incest patch works etc and then make their decision as to download that patch and the game (or just download whichever they want or don't want).

Now, as I said in my previous post:

.. if you see any game that is missing a specific tag that should be added then by all means report it so that the site staff can then correct the omission!

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Guess what? That also works if you think a specific tag either no longer applies or never did apply! Just report it and leave it to the site staff to make the decision that they think is best!

See how it works now? Choices and options! You have the choice/option to report any game to have a tag added or removed, then the site staff have the choice/option to either agree or disagree! Isn't that just so simple?

Anyways, I think I've said more than enough on this particular subject. I'm more than happy to let others add their comments, maybe some will agree with you and maybe some will agree with me. You know, dare I say it yet again? Choices: the freedom to choose what you want and what you don't want, the freedom to choose whether you agree or disagree with someone! Just so damn amazing how those choices keep popping up isn't it?

GrizzlyUK said:

*sigh* Yes, I do understand what you're saying. But you seem to be failing to understand what I'm saying. There is an incest patch currently available for people to choose to download. Regardless of how well or how badly it is implemented, the patch is there, linked very clearly in the OP.

Anyone is perfectly able to ask how well the incest patch works etc and then make their decision as to download that patch and the game (or just download whichever they want or don't want).

Now, as I said in my previous post:

Guess what? That also works if you think a specific tag either no longer applies or never did apply! Just report it and leave it to the site staff to make the decision that they think is best!

See how it works now? Choices and options! You have the choice/option to report any game to have a tag added or removed, then the site staff have the choice/option to either agree or disagree! Isn't that just so simple?

Anyways, I think I've said more than enough on this particular subject. I'm nore than happy to let others add their comments, maybe some will agree with you and maybe some will agree with me. You know, dare I say it yet again? Choices: the freedom to choose what you want and what you don't want, the freedom to choose whether you agree or disagree with someone! Just so damn amazing how those choices keep popping up isn't it?

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You're right, I shouldn't be dragging this conversation into the thread and should have just asked the mods for their input. If nothing else I enjoyed the discussion, even if we disagreed about how things should be tagged. Best wishes mate.

When Will I Be Able To Use These On Her???... xP xP xP

GrizzlyUK said:

The problem is that the Win/Linux v0.3.5 *.zip archive that I downloaded from Mega actually contains an invalid folder name so WinZip can't *see* what's inside the archive, which is why WinZip shows nothing. The main folder has been named as "*TheAwakening-0.3.5-pc" (for those that can't see the problem, the "*" right at the start of the filename is an invalid character which then makes the folder name invalid)! Fortunately 7zip opens the archive just fine and is also able to extract the entire contents of the *.zip archive.

Maybe next time you might want to actually verify that there are no problems with a file someone has downloaded before you tell them they must be doing something wrong?

EDIT: I've reported this post so that F95zone staff will be made aware of the problem. SLim_Games might want to know about this as well.

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Fixed.

thealucid said:

You're right, I shouldn't be dragging this conversation into the thread and should have just asked the mods for their input. If nothing else I enjoyed the discussion, even if we disagreed about how things should be tagged. Best wishes mate.

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No big deal, we discussed something, we debated back and forth, nobody lost any limbs or suffered any injuries, so all in all, a pretty decent way to pass a little bit of time! Just remember that having options and allowing folks to make their own choices is always a good thing!

Cirelc said:

Fixed.

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Excellent, thanks for the speedy response.

Archgetto79 said:

When Will I Be Able To Use These On Her???... xP xP xP View attachment 1021300

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In the next update hopefully

GrizzlyUK said:

The problem is that the Win/Linux v0.3.5 *.zip archive that I downloaded from Mega actually contains an invalid folder name so WinZip can't *see* what's inside the archive, which is why WinZip shows nothing. The main folder has been named as "*TheAwakening-0.3.5-pc" (for those that can't see the problem, the "*" right at the start of the filename is an invalid character which then makes the folder name invalid)! Fortunately 7zip opens the archive just fine and is also able to extract the entire contents of the *.zip archive.

Maybe next time you might want to actually verify that there are no problems with a file someone has downloaded before you tell them they must be doing something wrong?

EDIT: I've reported this post so that F95zone staff will be made aware of the problem. SLim_Games might want to know about this as well.

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I don't use WinZip anymore since... Windows 95, probably. Too much problems with it. Even chinese clones like HaoZip worked better than WinZip - and at least they were free.

I've - of course - downloaded the game from ALL sources to check this, including Mac, and ALL archives were showing files. I didn't seen the "*", my bad, OK, I've just checked them with a global extraction: 7zip replaced the "*" with a "_" - just checked this now, it was so transparent I didn't even noticed it. Archives weren't empty - and that was the initial problem, "I cannot extract it". I did it, on all sources. But not with the same tool.

Anyway, it was also possible to enter the folder within 7zip, see the files ("game", "lib", ...) and extract them to a folder - bypassing the main folder's name "problem". I don't even understand why WinZip wasn't able to do so... I can understand that for builtin Window's ZIP handling in Explorer - even if I never use it, I've just checked this either and that's true, it fails... Maybe WinZip don't have anymore a real ZIP engine and use Windows' one instead, now?

BTW, it's not the first time I see people complaining about the fact they cannot open archives with WinZIP, WinRAR or other "dedicated" archivers - while 7zip users never complains, at lease the one who updated it in the past two years... And if you miss too much a fancy look, then you have PeaZIP instead - same as 7zip, simply it's slower but prettier. And, more important, they're swiss knives: they can open near every possible archive format - unlike dedicated archivers - and that only is enough to choose them.

But archives weren't empty, "*" in a name is LEGIT in ZIP file format - stupid, OK, but legit anyway. WinZip was causing the problem (at least it should have been able to "enter" the faulty folder), and 7zip is a solution - so where's the drama? If people don't want to listen to advices or clues to solve their problems, that's not mine anymore...
Refusing to install a common, trusted, reliable and FREE software to solve an installation problem for softwares off the record - that are "trusted" by the same user! - is... help me, how can I say "a psychiatric issue" without seeming to be rude?

whens the update?

Wisblade said:

I don't use WinZip anymore since... Windows 95, probably. Too much problems with it. Even chinese clones like HaoZip worked better than WinZip - and at least they were free.

I've - of course - downloaded the game from ALL sources to check this, including Mac, and ALL archives were showing files. I didn't seen the "*", my bad, OK, I've just checked them with a global extraction: 7zip replaced the "*" with a "_" - just checked this now, it was so transparent I didn't even noticed it. Archives weren't empty - and that was the initial problem, "I cannot extract it". I did it, on all sources. But not with the same tool.

Anyway, it was also possible to enter the folder within 7zip, see the files ("game", "lib", ...) and extract them to a folder - bypassing the main folder's name "problem". I don't even understand why WinZip wasn't able to do so... I can understand that for builtin Window's ZIP handling in Explorer - even if I never use it, I've just checked this either and that's true, it fails... Maybe WinZip don't have anymore a real ZIP engine and use Windows' one instead, now?

BTW, it's not the first time I see people complaining about the fact they cannot open archives with WinZIP, WinRAR or other "dedicated" archivers - while 7zip users never complains, at lease the one who updated it in the past two years... And if you miss too much a fancy look, then you have PeaZIP instead - same as 7zip, simply it's slower but prettier. And, more important, they're swiss knives: they can open near every possible archive format - unlike dedicated archivers - and that only is enough to choose them.

But archives weren't empty, "*" in a name is LEGIT in ZIP file format - stupid, OK, but legit anyway. WinZip was causing the problem (at least it should have been able to "enter" the faulty folder), and 7zip is a solution - so where's the drama? If people don't want to listen to advices or clues to solve their problems, that's not mine anymore...
Refusing to install a common, trusted, reliable and FREE software to solve an installation problem for softwares off the record - that are "trusted" by the same user! - is... help me, how can I say "a psychiatric issue" without seeming to be rude?

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Hmmm, so basically you've missed the point entirely and instead are now trying to make it about "7zip is superior, so everyone should use 7zip"? Sorry but I'm not getting into a debate about which compression software is best or worst or cheaper or whatever!

If you're going to try to help people then you really must ensure that your help and/or advice is 100% accurate, in this case you fell way short of that! You basically insulted people by telling them there was nothing wrong with the archive so they must be doing something wrong! But it turns out they were right, there was a problem with the archive and they were NOT doing anything wrong!

Simply put, you were wrong, but instead of apologizing to the people you insulted you now try to insult them further! Normally I'd advise that a person removes an attempt at insulting people before they get into trouble with site staff, but that would be pointless now! Maybe it's nothing to worry about, maybe nobody will take the time to report your post! Then again ......... well, you've tried to insult a couple of people now, I suspect they might not take too kindly to that!

GrizzlyUK said:

Hmmm, so basically you've missed the point entirely and instead are now trying to make it about "7zip is superior, so everyone should use 7zip"? Sorry but I'm not getting into a debate about which compression software is best or worst or cheaper or whatever!

If you're going to try to help people then you really must ensure that your help and/or advice is 100% accurate, in this case you fell way short of that! You basically insulted people by telling them there was nothing wrong with the archive so they must be doing something wrong! But it turns out they were right, there was a problem with the archive and they were NOT doing anything wrong!

Simply put, you were wrong, but instead of apologizing to the people you insulted you now try to insult them further! Normally I'd advise that a person removes an attempt at insulting people before they get into trouble with site staff, but that would be pointless now! Maybe it's nothing to worry about, maybe nobody will take the time to report your post! Then again ......... well, you've tried to insult a couple of people now, I suspect they might not take too kindly to that!

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By this sites standards, as flame wars go, this seems pretty tame. NTR vs anti-NTR this ain’t. Still, I’m going to pop some popcorn, open a beer and hope for some entertainment to happen. Fighting over which unzipper to use? Sure. Why not.

Olheden said:

By this sites standards, as flame wars go, this seems pretty tame. NTR vs anti-NTR this ain’t. Still, I’m going to pop some popcorn, open a beer and hope for some entertainment to happen. Fighting over which unzipper to use? Sure. Why not.

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Nah, there's no flame war and certainly no fight to witness, so I'll save you the boring wait for anything to happen!

GrizzlyUK said:

Nah, there's no flame war and certainly no fight to witness, so I'll save you the boring wait for anything to happen!

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Yeah. I gave a solution on 26th of January. You came up on 5th of February, more than a week later.
Instead of trying to give lessons, why weren't you here at this time? Even now, you gave NO solution but to RE-download a copy - and removed a source. I gave one to open the archive, because here, it seems that too much people have a limited bandwith and/or storage space - and I don't have any of these limitations.

I'm wondering who helped the most... But continue what you were doing, that's cool, I'm fine with it.

Nice game, wish can play on Android

Wisblade said:

Yeah. I gave a solution on 26th of January. You came up on 5th of February, more than a week later.
Instead of trying to give lessons, why weren't you here at this time? Even now, you gave NO solution but to RE-download a copy - and removed a source. I gave one to open the archive, because here, it seems that too much people have a limited bandwith and/or storage space - and I don't have any of these limitations.

I'm wondering who helped the most... But continue what you were doing, that's cool, I'm fine with it.

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Aah, so now you're going with the "I was first" defense? Ok, so let's try a little step by step shall we?

Did you actually identify the issue? Nope, you just stated that you tested in 7zip, found nothing wrong so the users must be doing something wrong.

Did you notify the dev and/or site staff so that the issue could be corrected? Well no, because you'd "proved" there was no issue by testing with 7zip, even though the people reporting the issue clearly stated they had an issue with opening the archive in WinZip.

Did you provide an alternative method for opening the archive? Yes, you did! You actually got this one right!

You might want to re-read my posts, I confirmed that there was an issue with opening the archive in WinZip and explained what the issue was so that others would be able to understand precisely what was causing the issue. I also confirmed that opening the archive in 7zip did indeed work and did allow for extraction of the archive. I also advised that I was reporting my own post so that site staff would be made aware of the issue, that way the actual cause of the issue could be addressed correctly (which it then was).

I did NOT advise anyone to "RE-download a copy", nor did I remove a source (I simply cannot remove, add or do anything to the OP because I'm not site staff). If anyone decided to re-download after the archive was fixed then that was their choice to make, but it certainly wasn't something I either advised or told anyone to do. I am however happy to know that anyone downloading the archive after it was fixed won't have any issues with opening the archive in whatever compression software they prefer to use.

Oh, as for your "I gave a solution on 26th of January. You came up on 5th of February, more than a week later." comment, I simply missed noticing that the game had been updated. It happens sometimes because, well, let's be honest, there's a whole lot of games on the site to check out and sometimes I just simply take a quick look at the first page or two of the "Latest games & updates" sub-forum. I never even knew there was some sort of competition when it came to helping others, I always figured that trying to help others was more about, er, you know, actually helping others!

You made mistakes, you told people there was nothing wrong with the archive and even stated that "There is no "*" in front of filenames" but you were wrong! Sure, you advised people to use 7zip to open the archive instead but you simply didn't try opening the archive in WinZip to check if there was a problem! If you refuse to even understand where you made mistakes then you'll never be able to learn how to avoid making the same mistakes in the future! Do you even comprehend that I'm simply trying to make you realise what and where you went wrong? But no worries, clearly you simply don't want to learn so I'll not bother with wasting any more of my time or yours!

To anyone expecting and/or hoping to witness some sort of flame war, with insults flying all over the place: sorry, nothing to see here so please move along to the more interesting stuff! Hopefully some folks have at least been entertained for a little while, maybe even amused! So, that said, we now return you to your regular viewing!